Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

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Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  Gniksigerg on Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:54 am

Why has there been know talk to bring the JSS back... i have almost payed for most of my schooling with it.... i want it back, also the funny kids you meet... it is just a great program... please can someone talk to wizards!

Love Greg Shocked

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  irenicus1a on Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:55 pm

I agree. This problem extends into the MSS. I don't know why they had to discontinue it; however, it infuriates me. I was looking forward to this season and practicing hard for it only to find out that it no longer exists. This was my last season to play and I am crushed that it's gone. When the reps do talk to Wizards in KL please bring this topic up!

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  MagicRage on Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:57 pm

irenicus1a wrote:I agree. This problem extends into the MSS. I don't know why they had to discontinue it; however, it infuriates me. I was looking forward to this season and practicing hard for it only to find out that it no longer exists. This was my last season to play and I am crushed that it's gone. When the reps do talk to Wizards in KL please bring this topic up!

I've heard from a few people on the net mention that the MSS system did have some problems (ex: poor turnouts, same people winning over and over). But it was a great way to promote MTG with the youth. Especially as parental justification:

"Why should I take you to this tournament?"
"If I win I get a $500 college scholarship."
"Good choice of hobby, son!"

Hopefully the system can be revamped and brought back in 2009 as it seems to me like a great thing.
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Post  PV on Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:48 pm

Is there JSS in europe too, or just in the US?

I think it was a good thing, when I was of that age I always wanted to play in it but it was always too far =/

One problem with the JSS I guess is that it doesn't give you incentives to go pro, because once you play in a PT you cant JSS again - but if people really look forward to it I guess it's a good thing to have, yes - but I have to say that it doesn't affect the interests of the great majority of the people here so it'll probably be one of the first suggested things to stay cut, heh

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  Osprey17 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:59 pm

The JSS in the UK was very poorly organised in my opinion. The main problems with it in the UK were:

*There was a lack of advertising for events and most events (including the major tournaments like the national finals) seemed like they were organised at the last minute.
*There were very poorly attended, probably because of the above reason.
*The age levels kept changing (3 times last year alone) so people like me aged 17/18 had no idea if we could play in those events or not.
*The prize support wasn't that great compared to the MSS.

Overall I think its a very good idea as it helps encourage younger players into the game.

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  k2 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:12 pm

In italy there wasn't any kind of JSS like the US JSS. there is only one big tournament a year in october and the winner of that tournament goes to the under15 final that is played in the day4 of the wordls before the finals and i think that if wizards decides to cut this tournament it won't be a fool...the level is so low that no one going out from the JSS series is ready to play in a GP or in a PT, so maybe they could cut all the JSS at world level and with the money earned could, for example, pay the amauteur prize that anyone could earn. Of course some little tournament for under15 guys must be played because it encourages many children (10 years old for example) to play with their friends without loose every single match.srry for my english XD

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  bsushort on Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:10 am

JSS/MSS was an immensely flawed system. The turnout was low, but the payout was exorbitantly high. For the last tournament I personally oversaw, only 12 players showed up. For those 12 players, the prize pool consisted of 12 boxes (including the box-for-a-year structure) and $1000 in scholarships. This for a tournament that brought in only $300 in entrance fees. They were merely a handout system that over-rewarded the few players who knew about it.

They alluded to establishing some replacement system in the future, and this is precisely what needs to happen. I would suggest that future MSS (or whater they choose to call it) events be run as a "Juniors" division at PTQ events. Then, the advertising structure currently in place for PTQs could be extended to help draw MSS competitors. Regardless of the solution they plan to implement, I'm confidant this is not a true cancellation of the JSS, but instead WotC's admission that the system was broken and needed more than just a simple patch to set it right.

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  JoshMilligan on Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:02 am

yea, but for the younger players who are/ or want to take magic seriously, like myself and ginksigerg, the JSS and MSS is a great way to start. It bring all the good younger players to one spot and lets us get to know each other. It gets us involved with other serious magic players because most of us cant make it to PTQ's cause of travel and school. So the MSS/JSS's are a great thing for us younger magic players who are going to be the new pros in the future.

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  mercenarybdu on Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:02 am

Gniksigerg wrote:Why has there been know talk to bring the JSS back... i have almost payed for most of my schooling with it.... i want it back, also the funny kids you meet... it is just a great program... please can someone talk to wizards!

Love Greg Shocked

Look. We have to factor in the fact that it only supported a single format over multiple ones like all of the other programs.

Just look them over...

FNM - Sealed, Draft, T2
PTQ - Extended, Block, Sealed, Draft, T2, 2HG
Gateway - Various
JSS/MSS - T2 <------------
Eternal Championships - Vintage, Legacy, Block
PT - Block, Draft, 2HG, Extended, Legacy, T2
GP - Block, Draft, 2HG, Extended, Three person Teams, Legacy, T2
Worlds - T2, Draft, Legacy, 2HG
Invitational - various, Vintage
Local Championships/States/Regionals/Champs - T2, 2HG, Draft, Sealed
Nationals - Draft, T2

....they eliminated it for that reason. With that said JSS hasn't had updated information as well telling us that JSS has also been killed off. These adjustments are a sign that bad times have hit hard on the world economy and should indicate that the company is suffering in the process if they don't find a way to boost up popularity amongst all formats.

Since the next round of rotations were amongst everyone for Extended, they took more into consideration that they had to make cards that were suitable for all of the formats besides the ones that FNM and PTQs highly support.

Attendance levels have already dropped at all National events as Pro Points are what people want on their records, the more you have of them on an ethical basis then the greater the chance you are going to make it into the PT Hall of Fame. Remember that lots of Pros tend to skip out on that event just because they were in search of Pro Points to add to their level. So some programs had to be cut to balance everything out.


In addition to all of that, why have that kind of event when you could chase after an amount to pay for more than Education?

Think about it some more.
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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  coppro on Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:52 pm

As a player who played in MSS last year, I am disappointed to see it gone. I now don't have anywhere to really use the deck I spent a lot of time and effort building over the last few months. I don't disagree that there were problems, but I don't have anywhere else to play - would be Champs, but I'm on vacation over spring break. With the timing, I shouldn't need to get that many new cards, but I really liked playing with people more my age. I'd play in a PT, but I don't have the money to play any constructed other than Block and T2, and a PTQ-PT pairing like that comes quite rarely (and parents are always an issue). Regionals is an option, but I don't know how a road trip for a bunch of cards is going to go over with my parents. I don't really have anywhere to play, and my deck is itching for a chance to go at it. City Champs seems like fun, but it's got awful timing, and a small weekly thing just isn't what I really want to do - I prefer a more infrequent, bigger go. FNM is timed better, but hey.

Something; anything to play in would be appreciated.

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  bsushort on Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:55 pm

I think one of the biggest problems of the JSS was that it was meant as an ambassador service to introduce young players to the game, but it could be a bad ambassador. With the incredibly high prize payout, JSS frequently attracted the sort of ultra-competitive players that put a bad face on the game to new and inexperienced players. Instead of being the friendly and fun environment an ambassador system should be, many competitors were overly competitive and rules mongering giving players in my events the impression that Magic is a cutthroat and confrontational game.

This is an event that should be encouraging a much different mindset amongst its players. When/if it comes back, I hope that they use a prize structure that is not as top-loaded to help put the focus on enjoying the game and less importance on needing to get first.

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  EmersonP on Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:22 pm

I really liked the MSS as it had really good prize support and gives some credibility to the game for younger players. I was very dissapointed when I heard it was discontinued but I was also mad that it took so long to annouce. Last years season started January 6th... the announcement of its end was somewhere around January 14th. They said
" will be increasing our reach to more play outlets with the goal of using a redesigned age limited program as part of new local programs across the world."
..but no mention of anything. Then the announcement is finished off with

"We are excited about the changes in our programs this year, and hope that you will check out www.magicthegathering.com for news about the new programs and outlets through 2008 and beyond."
So basically they say we are getting rid of the MSS with nothing replacing it and try to make it sound good by saying they are excited by it.

Thanks for alienating an entire player base guys...

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  bsushort on Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:19 am

I get the feeling they want to distinguish the eventual successor to the JSS from the old system. If they release the new one at the same time they end the old, it gives the appearance of radically changing an existing system. If they wait, then make a promotional push with a completely revamped system, it will have a different impact.

I expect they'll be launching a new system by the release of Shadowmoor. That would give them the opportunity to use the tokens/rules cards to advertise the new format. Of course, this is just my theory, but I highly doubt they're going to swear off youth oriented tournaments, especially when they imply redesigning the program in their official announcement.

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  mercenarybdu on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:36 am

Then again, I did do research upon what happened when the JPT was eliminated from the radar. It had some negative impacts too as well as the Go Guru Program the company once had in circulation.

Not much data was found on either other than a thank you notice from the Go Guru Program with not a trace of the JPT that was converted into the JSS/MSS.

This situation isn't new and should feed the fires if a new program isn't introduced soon.
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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  dcrazy94062 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:09 am

i believe that axing the mss was a terrible move by wotc. it encouraged young players to attempt to play the game more seriously, and mss q's were often the defining events of a young player's season. as a mss player, i was particularly infuriated at this decision. true the prize support was hefty, but that only drew more players to the tournaments. true some older (16-18) players would be stingy and strict to younger players, but that is simply the nature of the beast. if it ain't broke don't fix it, and it seems wotc has comitted a terrible error just to save money. will any players union representatives at pt kl please talk to a wotc higher-up to try to revamp the mss in time for the spring season? i know it will mean a lot to all the younger players, and would give a better image to a game already plagued by social stigma.
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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  mercenarybdu on Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:58 am

dcrazy94062 wrote:i believe that axing the mss was a terrible move by wotc. it encouraged young players to attempt to play the game more seriously, and mss q's were often the defining events of a young player's season. as a mss player, i was particularly infuriated at this decision. true the prize support was hefty, but that only drew more players to the tournaments. true some older (16-18) players would be stingy and strict to younger players, but that is simply the nature of the beast. if it ain't broke don't fix it, and it seems wotc has comitted a terrible error just to save money. will any players union representatives at pt kl please talk to a wotc higher-up to try to revamp the mss in time for the spring season? i know it will mean a lot to all the younger players, and would give a better image to a game already plagued by social stigma.

If that series were to return, I'd like to see more support to the other formats than just T2. It's just too narrow at the moment and the very reason why it was cut off the bat. If we request to add additional formats to the pool then there would more of a greater chance of seeing a return. T2 is just limiting what the newer players could do in terms of piecing together their decks.
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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  giffenaw on Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:16 am

As long as they stay away from Extended and beyond, I would agree with expanding to other formats. It does not make sense to me to have a series for young people that would require them to purchase cards that were likely printed before they started playing the game. Limited and block constructed would be fine to use in a "Junior/Scholarship" program. Extended, Legacy, and Vintage? Not so much.

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  dcrazy94062 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:16 pm

well said both of u and i definitely agree there should be more support for different formats. i would enjoy block mss quite a bit as well as ptq style limied (sealed then top 8 draft)...however, introducing limited to mss would make it harder for younger/inexperienced players, since limited is much more skill intensive and might cater to more experienced players...i would enjoy limited mss's, but for the sake of the game wotc should probably keep it constructed...i cant wait until the mss is back so i can win more scholarship/prize money, since college isnt that cheap nowadays and i will be applying soon...
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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  ender on Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:22 am

From my perspective, there is truth from both sides. I myself won 3 MSSs/JSSs where all of them were won without more competition than a PTQ (that is to be expected). So yes, a small group of players (players such as myself, not to tute my horn, just to give an example) would dominate all the qualifiers. I also know another kid that won are got second in most of the qualifier tournaments as well. This shows the part of the system that is not working, having a prize structure that most benefits the winners. While I would love to have this back along with the boxes for a year, since I can conviniently win them without much trouble, I dont think that this is good for magic. Having players taht are moving on to PTQs and GPs attending MSSs and dominating them is not good. Again, not to tute my horn, but after making day 2 of a GP, and 3 PTQ top 8s, it seems triviial to win an MSS, especially considering that most of the MSSs do in fact have a small turnout. These are the basic problems with the structure of the MSS. I do like the suggestion that somekind of junior division might be reintroduced. While I dont know how it would look, I know from the perspective of what is good for magic, they need to reform the program. This is where I start disagreeing with wizards. Again, much like the players club, they should have announced this earlier and should have made it more noticable like evan erwin suggested. I feel like I am ranting, but that is really what I think is the case with this, so yes I liked the MSS from my personal point of view, but think it has to be reformed and do think that it should come back in some form.

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  mercenarybdu on Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:39 am

ender wrote:From my perspective, there is truth from both sides. I myself won 3 MSSs/JSSs where all of them were won without more competition than a PTQ (that is to be expected). So yes, a small group of players (players such as myself, not to tute my horn, just to give an example) would dominate all the qualifiers. I also know another kid that won are got second in most of the qualifier tournaments as well. This shows the part of the system that is not working, having a prize structure that most benefits the winners. While I would love to have this back along with the boxes for a year, since I can conviniently win them without much trouble, I dont think that this is good for magic. Having players taht are moving on to PTQs and GPs attending MSSs and dominating them is not good. Again, not to tute my horn, but after making day 2 of a GP, and 3 PTQ top 8s, it seems triviial to win an MSS, especially considering that most of the MSSs do in fact have a small turnout. These are the basic problems with the structure of the MSS. I do like the suggestion that somekind of junior division might be reintroduced. While I dont know how it would look, I know from the perspective of what is good for magic, they need to reform the program. This is where I start disagreeing with wizards. Again, much like the players club, they should have announced this earlier and should have made it more noticable like evan erwin suggested. I feel like I am ranting, but that is really what I think is the case with this, so yes I liked the MSS from my personal point of view, but think it has to be reformed and do think that it should come back in some form.

True too as it has already shown from the old JPT days with Finkel, Budde, Maher, and all of the other true greats of the game. It has even shown more recently with the fact that a few of the recent MSS Champions have been following along as well to all of those players.

So this isn't a new situation at all. As the single format thing is one of the factors of why it was eliminated. A single format means that the people who have put the time and the effort to make it big are always going to breeze right through the event. If more formats were added to the pool then there would be more of a chance to maintain balance as the players would have to divert into more formats than just a single one.
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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  bsushort on Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:46 pm

Of all the threads on this board, this is the one I most hope WotC pays attention to. There have been a lot of great ideas about what was wrong and what was right about the JSS system, and I'd love to see it all incorporated when they bring out its successor. To me, there are a few main points I hope to see them use.

-Flat prize payout system that doesn't encourage cutthroat play
-Inclusion of block, standard, and sealed to provide a variety of play experiences
-Continue handing out pens, folders, backpacks, promo cards and other such goodies used in previous system (was especially popular with younger players in my area, and parents loved that their kids usually left with something even if they didn't win a match)
-Use better systems to promote events so players can actually find out about them (such as the ads on the backs of the token cards)

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  Luke on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:26 am

Osprey17 wrote:The JSS in the UK was very poorly organised in my opinion. The main problems with it in the UK were:

*There was a lack of advertising for events and most events (including the major tournaments like the national finals) seemed like they were organised at the last minute.
*There were very poorly attended, probably because of the above reason.
*The age levels kept changing (3 times last year alone) so people like me aged 17/18 had no idea if we could play in those events or not.
*The prize support wasn't that great compared to the MSS.

Overall I think its a very good idea as it helps encourage younger players into the game.

Prize support was amazing!

I judged the JSS last year. The tournament one the day was well organised, the build up to it was practically unheard of though. I certainly know no where in Sussex heard about it.
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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  mercenarybdu on Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:59 am

Okay, I see that everyone wants to bring back the program now with the stuff that the previous system was already established with a few small changes here and there. As for Formats to expand into we could look at it like this....

Formats that would most likely make it...
T2 <----already exists
Block <----makes it easy for the newer player to access
Sealed <----an introduction into limited play for the newer player

Might:
Extended <-----would encourage the players to keep their arsenals for later use once a specific T2 and Block Season is over so they don't have to spend so much for parts later. But should be kept down to a certain minimum to not make the system look bad.

Not make it:
Draft <----- has been dismissed as it requires a power buyer's budget just to run. I've taken a tally of how much you would have had to spend just to keep up with this format. No offense, you just have to put it from a parent's perspective every now and then.

Eternal Formats <------out of the question as they take up as much of a sharp margin buyer's budget just to acquire all the parts needed to make most of the decks work. It also takes up more time, research, testing, resources, and a good funding supply just to put the whole deck together. I know this by fact as it takes a long time just to build prototype that's effective enough to compete against the fields. So don't believe everything a rumor tells you about these formats.
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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  Gniksigerg on Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:40 am

I agree with the idea that it should alternate formats. It would be cool to have kind of a mini nationals for the younger kids at the jss cahmpionships. Kind of like day 1 standard, day 2 draft, day three a mix of both, then top 8 was standard.

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Re: Why just pro tours... What about MSS?

Post  mercenarybdu on Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:15 am

Gniksigerg wrote:I agree with the idea that it should alternate formats. It would be cool to have kind of a mini nationals for the younger kids at the jss cahmpionships. Kind of like day 1 standard, day 2 draft, day three a mix of both, then top 8 was standard.

I see your point but draft is not going no where near this program as it has already been considered and turned down. As the same concept could be used in that manner for the shot at the bigger chunk of the scholarship money....

Sample 1:
Day 1 - T2
Day 2 - Sealed
Final Day - Top 8 after going through the last rounds of T2 and Sealed with T2 being used to determine the winner.

But then again I'd like to see it in this manner....

Sample 2:
Day 1 - 3 rounds of Block
Day 2 - 6 rounds of Sealed
Day 3 - 3 rounds of Extended to determine the Top 8 with Sealed or one of the two constructed formats as the choice to win the title.

....that way the top 8 would be more difficult just to claim the title as Champion as it wouldn't be too much of who had the T2 parts to put together a deck (net decked most of the time). As this model would also give the newer player experience with all of the PTQ formats rather than just the rehash the FNM formats they are used to playing at the local level (if they only host FNM events).

But yet the two models could be worked out over time to see which would be better with bringing in more players.
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