The power of the lever, or exactly what does Hasbro owe anyone?

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Re: The power of the lever, or exactly what does Hasbro owe anyone?

Post  atomsmasher on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:24 am

so i might be a little harsher than usual in this post, but i can not shut up because in this case i would have to bang my head against the wall.

this is not against wizards or their employs, but these stupid morrons posting bull shit.

1. what does wizzard owe us? first of all its the wrong question! we do not owe wotc a damn thing. the organized play programm is a promotional system to increase card sales. do we owe mac donalds sth. for commercials? fucking no! its not us who want to sell sth. but wotc.
it is in their best interest to keep us satisfied.

2. if we did not care for the game, why bothering making a union and trying to change things? why not leave magic and playings spoils, wow, poker or Insert random card game? because we do care about the game and do not want to leave magic. the people here are not some greedy thiefs trying to rob poor wotc.

3. we buy packs in the belief, that wotc provides an organized play, where we can use these cards. that may not be an official contract between the players and wotc but can be considered as silent consensus.

4. i'm no lawyer and i do not think it would be appropriate to this, but there might be a claim for the lv3. + pros who spend money on tournament fees, travel etc. to level up in expectation of a certain reward, i. e. attendance fees and plane tickets etc.., they had no reason to believe that there would be such drastic changes in the pro players club pay out.

5. the pro versus joe discussion. first of all people need to realise that pros are good for the game. arguments can be found everywhere in this forum. i` m not going to repeat all the arguements. ptq players do not bring money to the game? what a stupid idea. i guess if you look at spendings per player, you will see that ptq players pay far more for magic than casual players. who is drafting every week, participating in tournaments and trying to get all the new chase rares? the casual player with his fun decks? i don't think so. so tarmogoyf is up to 50 $. why because tournament players all over the world need them. due to that need, people buy packs and card shops open cases of boosters to get them. who profits? wotc of the cost. I think if every ptq player qualifies ones for the pt, getting a plane ticket of may be 750 $, then it will only be a small part of the money they spent getting there.

these are the people who burden much financial stress and suffer the most from the new pay out!!!!!


6. I certainly do not want to suffer from the problems deriving from the chinese toy issue, which is probably one of the reasons for the drastic change.


so why are you bother to write in this forum? why not just shut up and leave? if you are not interested in working on changes why are whinning in this forum? yeah it is you whinning about the greedy pro players. said pro players and all other people here show interest to improve the communication with wotc and the game we all love. is it because u are greedy yourself? because you do not get money for slinging cards? if you have no interest in winning money by playing magic, why are you here? because you could just ignore this and go on with what ever u are doing and not getting on any bodies nerves.

with the anonymity of the internet come the pricks, that start getting on anybodies nerves, because they get no attention in real life. go get a girlfriend or friends at all!

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Re: The power of the lever, or exactly what does Hasbro owe anyone?

Post  bsushort on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:23 am

atomsmasher wrote:so why are you bother to write in this forum? why not just shut up and leave? if you are not interested in working on changes why are whinning in this forum? yeah it is you whinning about the greedy pro players. said pro players and all other people here show interest to improve the communication with wotc and the game we all love. is it because u are greedy yourself? because you do not get money for slinging cards? if you have no interest in winning money by playing magic, why are you here? because you could just ignore this and go on with what ever u are doing and not getting on any bodies nerves.

with the anonymity of the internet come the pricks, that start getting on anybodies nerves, because they get no attention in real life. go get a girlfriend or friends at all!
raph wrote:Welcome!

The MTG Players' Union has been formed after the 2008 PT structure has been announced. It is gathering players from all over the world, from Hardcore Pros to competitive players at a lower level. Us players and WotC officials have the same goal: we all love the game and want it to be as enjoyable as possible, for everyone.

With our experience and distance we have as players, we see our game differently from how WotC officials do. We feel that WotC is missing our point of view when they are making important decisions.

We would like to have some influence on some of WotCís decisions, especially when they affect us badly. With the support of a whole community, we hope to be able to voice our opinions and work together with WotC to keep enjoying Magic for as long as possible.

To show your support, do not just read the forum, register. The more people are registered here, the more our voice will have credibility.

Long live MTG,
RaphaŽl

The expressed purpose of this community, according to its own founding statement, is to voice the point of views and opinions of all players. Those of us who do not take specific offense with these changes feel obligated to represent that opinion. Just as you want to make sure your voice is heard, we want to make sure the other side gets its representation.

I've enjoyed this game since its inception, and every time Wizards has made some seemingly drastic change, there have been cries that it would kill the game. Sixth Edition rules, Eighth Edition card frames, Mercadian Masques... there is always some reason people think the game is in danger of imminent collapse. The only difference between this time and every other time is the specific group doing the doomsaying.

When I bring up the topic of the recent changes in local stores, there are a few people who claim they are upset at the changes, but none of them felt it would change their level of interest in the game. From the grass roots level, I see little impact from the changes. Like every other change in the games history, there are those who feel slighted (some of which may in fact leave), but the game itself will remain. I post to say that there are plenty of us who feel the game is fully capable of pulling through these changes intact.

Yeah, it's going to be hard on a lot of people. I know many players feel shafted by the changes in the Pro Players Club membership system. I know the top pros just saw a significant decrease in their expected earnings this year. But the truth of the matter is that this is one hell of a resilient game and it'll take a lot more than this to kill it off. We don't even know the choices behind these changes yet, so how can be so damn sure this was the wrong move. How do you know their other alternatives weren't much, much worse?

I'm not some anonymous troll focused on harassing those on this forum, many of which I know are genuinely hurt by these changes. When a group claims to represent all players, that gives me the right to be heard, too. Just because my opinion differs from that of the Players' Union founders doesn't mean it's any less valid.

-Nick Short

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Re: The power of the lever, or exactly what does Hasbro owe anyone?

Post  atomsmasher on Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:21 am

i was not refering directly to you, for you seem to be reasonable man. my question still is: what is your point. there is wotc doing bad comunication, cutting prize money and a pt. your response: hey no problem man!

that is the point i do not get. nobody is saying that magic is dying of it or similiar things(at least the reasonable) but it is still impacting the way the pro tour and the game itself will develop through out the next years.

I think we can not accept that changes like that are sidenotes in a column (who reads the week that was on a regular basis?) there should have been an announcement on the main page or emails or what else.

besides the lack of communication skills, i think it is rather unfair to make such changes for current seasons. people fought hard to level up in respect to get money back later, for example by attendence fees, now your hear that the conditions totally changed. that is not appropriate for large company like wotc or hasbro. regarding that they usually plan these tours well in advance, they must have at least known, that there was a pro tour less this year

honesty would be nice too, but i guess saying we are cutting the pro tour because hasbro has serious issues with toys produced in china is not the easiest thing to admit.

next thing is: whats wrong with money? if your not interested in winning money thats strange to me, but okay. but you claim to not bother about the money aspect. if you do not bother, why do you state this? usually if one does not bother about a thing, he will not scream out in public :"look folks i do not bother"

you say that you want wotc to hear your opinion. but if your not interested in sth. whats the point in saying so? that implies that you actually do bother. are you trying to encourage wotc to cut even more pts? i really do not get the point here.

is it some kind of honour thing. like these bad greedy people take money they do not deserve from poor wotc? people must come to the conclusion that we do not owe wotc anything. they are business company, so they would not have started the whole thing if they did not make lot of money with magic in the first place. the organized play is a service that we pay for by buying booster packs and paying tournament fees. if the service decrease but we still have to pay the same amount of money for boosters or tournaments then there should be some explanation why.

i'm next to 100% sure this is due to some problems in the mothership hasbro but i do not see the reason why we should get less pro tours just because hasbro decided to manufacture low quality toys in china and now might get suied or anything like that.

I buy magic cards while trusting wizards that they insure acceptable ways for me to play with these cards. if they make drastic changes like these without properly comunicating them, then the trust gets lost. this is not just about ranting that some random pros get less money its also about trust.

comparing this change to 6th edition rules update is not apropriate. because there is whole lot of more meaning to it. if you like it or not we have pros in this game and changes that make it impossible for them to maintain their livestyle should not be announced in a sideline of a column.

i mean did they think they get through with it? not plainly stating there is a pro tour less? did they think nobody would notice?

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Re: The power of the lever, or exactly what does Hasbro owe anyone?

Post  bsushort on Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:23 am

I come into the discussion with one basic assumption, that WotC (for whatever the underlying reason is) had to find a way to cut back a large amount of money from their budget, and they chose to take it out of the Pro Tour and related systems. With future communication, maybe we'll find out more details, but that's my base assumption up to this point.

From that standpoint, is the Pro Tour the best place for such a cut to be made? I'm of the opinion that yes, it actually was.

This isn't from some dislike of the Pro Tour or anyone associated with it, but from the standpoint that it is a place where such a large cut can be made while still leaving the functionality intact, damaged but still fully capable of doing what it does. I don't think they could have done that in almost any other area. What else could they have done? Significantly cut back on traditional advertising (thus impacting their flow of new players)? Cut a large number Grand Prix events (and it would take quite a few to see the same returns)? Yet another price increase? I think most other options would have been worse than the ones they chose.

In a vacuum, yeah, I'd prefer if they hadn't made their changes, but if something has to give I honestly think that was one place that had some space to give. The Pro Tour is still capable of supporting the gravy train, just not for as many people as before. The dream isn't dead, just harder to attain. Please note that this does not mean I think they should have free license to just keep cutting PT events, because they do need to maintain that minimum threshold and two would be too few.

I do agree that the communication was horribly blown on this one. Obviously, they should have given advance warning about changes of this caliber, but hopefully actions such as those in motion here can help to improve that in the future. In fact, I'm confident that the existence of the Player's Union alone will help make huge progress in this area. If nothing else, it has reminded WotC of the depth of passion that their consumer's have for their game and for how it's run.

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Re: The power of the lever, or exactly what does Hasbro owe anyone?

Post  morgop on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:32 pm

bsushort wrote:I think most of us here agree that the Pro Tour is a marketing tool and that it does in fact help move product through its existence. However, the changes recently made to the Pro Tour system are fairly minor. The people (and I include myself in this group) that view this as an overreaction to these changes feel that only a handful of people are directly affected. The loss of one Pro Tour just makes it harder for pros to remain on the gravy train. As a PTQ level player, I had no delusions of ever making it to that level, thus I see no way in which these changes significantly affect me (and by extension assume most other players of my level feel the same way).
The changes are not minor when you include those who 1) do not have the finances to pay their way onto the pro tour, 2) are upset that the promise which was made to current pros was revoked and that if/when they become pro, WOTC could potentially do the same to them, and 3) increased competition at fewer events for decreased prizes undermines support on many levels. Poll the room at a PTQ and how many honestly think they can take the envelope? I expect a vast majority thinks they at least have a shot. 4) No JSS + no communication of any way to bring in new players= declining future participation and thereby sales.

bsushort wrote:I personally see no way that these changes could cause the Pro Tour to implode. The draw is still there for players of my level and ambition, and it is harder to profit but not impossible. Thus, all of these arguments about "WotC will suffer when the Pro Tour doesn't exist" seem absurd because these changes are not going to kill the Pro Tour. Sure some may see this as the first move in a series of steps that does it in, but I'd say those people are either unrealistic pessimists or alarmists who think they can use such hyperbole to convince people to support their cause through fear that they might just be right.
Many use the same argument for global warming. Look, either you do something about it and you end up spending a little to mitigate the threat (time will tell if it was right to spend or not) or you do nothing and if the threat proves real, you have a major catastrophe. The same holds true here.

bsushort wrote:
PV wrote:I don't want to sound rude, but why are you even here if you think like that?
The reason is that everyone here wants what's best for the game, even those who disagree with the opinions this board was founded on. If this forum is to represent WotC's audience and present our opinions of their decisions, then it needs to include all of those opinions.
Well said- everyone has a right to their opinion. It is up to those who have an interest in forming this site to show that their position is valid. We can only do that if everyone has the right to voice their opinions.

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Re: The power of the lever, or exactly what does Hasbro owe anyone?

Post  oni_meno on Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:21 am

Just my point of view...

This site is called "MTG Players Union" and not "MTG ProPlayers Union". This is because, the people who started this movement knows and believe that this new changes will effect ALL MAGIC PLAYERS...PROS and NON-PROS alike.

You have to remember that everyone started as a noob or a casual player before they ever got to be pros. Thus i believe that the pros should not forget where they came from and take into account how the non-pros are affected.

The chages affect eveyone, it is not an issue who is affected more or less, sooner or later it will affect everyone the same.

Anyone who has anything to do about magic should stand together. Look at the bigger picture and you will see that everyone is loosing out...pros, non-pros, casual players, noobs, dealers, shopowners and at the end Magic The Gathering itself. Please show your support.

Twisted Evil

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Re: The power of the lever, or exactly what does Hasbro owe anyone?

Post  kcolloran on Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:42 pm

bsushort wrote:The loss of one Pro Tour just makes it harder for pros to remain on the gravy train. As a PTQ level player, I had no delusions of ever making it to that level, thus I see no way in which these changes significantly affect me (and by extension assume most other players of my level feel the same way).

I also have no dreams of making the Pro Tour, but I enjoy playing the game of magic. One way losing a Pro Tour event effects us is taking away a whole set of PTQs. I don't like extended so now that KL PTQs are over I basically have to wait a whole year to get another shot at PTQs. But if there was a fifth PTQ of some sort, like for example 2HG, then I'd have a few more weekends where I could go sling cards with my friends and meet new people and maybe even get lucky and make the Pro Tour. So that's one way it affects non-pros.

Another way it affects non-pros is by cutting down on the amount of Pro Tours we have to watch. As someone who enjoys following the pro tour seeing one cut means one less weekend where I can enjoy following the game and thinking about how other people played the cards and one less weekend of rooting for my friends and favorite players.

And those are just two obvious repercussions of losing a pro tour. There are plenty of other effects like the decrease in the amount of Stars on the tour which will lead to a decrease in the appeal of the pro tour which leads to less new players in the game. The tour loses a lot of its potential as an advertising tool if it's not a dream which can be inspired to. And I'm sure if you wanted I could come up with more reasons why the decision impacts everyone who likes to play competitive magic. It's a mistake to think that it only affects the few who are gravy-trained PTers.

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Re: The power of the lever, or exactly what does Hasbro owe anyone?

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