R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

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Is R&D doing enough for Legacy and Vintage

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R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  mercenarybdu on Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:43 am

I wonder who is at the wheel in monitoring and testing the all Eternal formats on a Major Scale?

So far everyone knows that R&D are always focused on FNM and PTQ formats. On that team, we see the Block Team and the T2 Team as well as the Extended Team. Draft and Sealed are a given by my understanding when designing the next block.

But then when Legacy or Vintage are mentioned in the testing, research and analyzing step from R&D, the community finds nothing but assumptions from them. By far they haven't done enough in figuring out all of the tings to the format yet, as it brings me back to my question. Who is at the wheel?
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Re: R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  Reindeercards on Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:26 am

I figure WotC is doing the same thing as everyone else: occassionally reading forums that talk about Eternal formats.

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Re: R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  Adam Nightmare on Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:44 pm

From fairly rigorous research regarding this issue, the best conclusion I can give you is simply, No one.

The fact of the matter is, R&D doesn't plan their card pool based on the effect it will have on the Eternal Formats, except in the case of:

A) A new Mechanic that will have a profound interaction with a large number of cards from old sets
B) Something they realize during development that will create significant problems

Case A generally works itself out, and Case B usually disrupts the metagame until they screw their heads back on straight, and things return to normal. The two most recent changes I can remember that fall into this category were the printing of Flame Fusillade (and the subsequent "intention" errata to Time Vault) and the removal of Flash's power level errata. Both of these created combos that made waves in the eternal communities, and both were handled (eventually). It's long standing practice for R&D to ignore the effects on the Eternal formats until a significant outcry is raised.

The thing is, no one is blaming them. If there were someone on staff whos sole job was to find any potential issues with new cards and their interaction with every card in the ever-expanding history of the game, then we would have a lot less fun doing it ourselves. There would be no powerhouses slipping through the cracks, or easter eggs to find. Thats a lot of the allure to many of the Legacy and Vintage deckbuilders out there. Besides, who do you trust to do that job, and not miss anything? There are a LOT of obscure, on-the-verge-of-being-broken cards out there, waiting for their time to shine. I know I wouldn't want to be the guy who was supposed to make sure they don't accidentally break a format in which tens of thousands of cards are legal.

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Re: R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  bsushort on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:43 am

There's not much that R&D can really do for eternal formats. With the card pool as huge as it is, a card has to either be far above the curve in power level (Tarmogoyf) or fill a niche role cheaply (Spell Snare) before it can really impact an eternal format. If they print too many of the first group, it would lead to a power creep problem in Standard and Extended, while the second category contains only a small portion of the available design space, and thus sees only a small percentage of cards.

Basically, they are doing what they can, and it's hard to ask for more without adversely effecting other aspects of the game. At least they do think about it now, though. There was a time when they wouldn't even consider the format during design. The hard fact is, its tough to design a card for a "broken" format without designing a broken card.

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Re: R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  gleemax on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:22 am

Me and another player were talking about this and we came up with the idea that after extended rotates Magic might have PT or GP for Vintage during the new extended adjustment period.

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Re: R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  atomsmasher on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:38 am

may be legacy but never vintage! you heard of the problems people had getting the cards for legacy decks for worlds? now imagine adding p9. that is not going to happen, because having access to p9 is to important to tournament success, which should not be a factor.

what is your problem with the eternal formats? as far as i know both formats are healthy and you get new playables in nearly every set, a feat that is not to be underestimated because they can not print cards for eternal only and have to consider t2 extended and block constr, too. so where is the point?

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Re: R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  mercenarybdu on Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:33 am

gleemax wrote:Me and another player were talking about this and we came up with the idea that after extended rotates Magic might have PT or GP for Vintage during the new extended adjustment period.

You guys pulled a curve ball on that event for the Legacy portion as most of the reporters knew nothing about the format. So the majority never got to see the full fury of the format just an introductory.
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Re: R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  mercenarybdu on Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:31 am

atomsmasher wrote:may be legacy but never vintage! you heard of the problems people had getting the cards for legacy decks for worlds? now imagine adding p9. that is not going to happen, because having access to p9 is to important to tournament success, which should not be a factor.

what is your problem with the eternal formats? as far as i know both formats are healthy and you get new playables in nearly every set, a feat that is not to be underestimated because they can not print cards for eternal only and have to consider t2 extended and block constr, too. so where is the point?

Lets say you are a person trying to look for data on these formats. Where the hell are you going to obtain the data when the data is scattered in 200 different places in over many languages? Wizards has a lot of out dated data and never has enough accurate information about them to make a few correct decisions on what to take down or add on as there are so many sleepers at the moment for a lot of cards.

It took Flash a while to catch on and be added in exchange for two cards. Then another was banned from all formats just because it lost context with the modern rules of the game, as it was already unlocked by an atomic minority which I have seen what you could do with the power of SUBGAMEs in a tourney legal setting.

Well there is still a lot to be unlocked in a format that has so many cards and the community still wants to know if Wizards done enough to satisfy the Legacy Community.

Finding cards might be one of the issues, but having people to actually understand what the format is all about is a different factor as some still assume that whenever a person plays with a lot of older cards it is Vintage all the way when they are missing the point of it.

Vintage is easily understandable as all you need to know are what just the following:

the meta game
what it's all about
what nearly every deck needs to operate
the b/r list
the card pool
a stable budget plan
how to operate the decks once you figure them out without having to refer back to the database for rulings

Legacy is equivalently to a 20x20x20 Rubric's Cube. Although people stick with their traditional builds without all of the busted cards in Vintage, they still find themselves wondering "what else could I do with the card pool?" Vintage has the P9 in the way with cards that would otherwise just over ride what you could actually build. In Legacy most of those busted cards are out of the way along with the P9 set leaving the field wide open for what you could do with all those cards. So if you were going to build a Threshold deck you could go in 20 different directions over just 4. Then if you were going to build a Landstill deck, you have 60 different directions over just the 8 in Vintage.

Think about it.
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Re: R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  MagicRage on Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:24 am

The problem is that the cardpool for Vintage and Legacy are so huge the story from R&D is that they just don't have the time/manpower to really test cards in the format and have to worry more about Standard, Limited, and Block. Even Extended doesn't get a whole lot of focus from them.
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Re: R&D; who's at the wheel in focusing on the Eternal Formats

Post  Adam Nightmare on Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:11 pm

mercenarybdu wrote:Lets say you are a person trying to look for data on these formats. Where the hell are you going to obtain the data when the data is scattered in 200 different places in over many languages? Wizards has a lot of out dated data and never has enough accurate information about them to make a few correct decisions on what to take down or add on as there are so many sleepers at the moment for a lot of cards.
I'm not going to come on here and advertise, but there is a handy compilation of top8 decklists taken from a number of said foreign language sites, located here.

Well there is still a lot to be unlocked in a format that has so many cards and the community still wants to know if Wizards done enough to satisfy the Legacy Community.
Uh, for the most part, we're satisfied. We're happy with our 1 GP per year or so, and any continuance of that trend is perfectly fine with us.

Although people stick with their traditional builds without all of the busted cards in Vintage, they still find themselves wondering "what else could I do with the card pool?" Vintage has the P9 in the way with cards that would otherwise just over ride what you could actually build. In Legacy most of those busted cards are out of the way along with the P9 set leaving the field wide open for what you could do with all those cards. So if you were going to build a Threshold deck you could go in 20 different directions over just 4. Then if you were going to build a Landstill deck, you have 60 different directions over just the 8 in Vintage.
I'm not sure what your point is, nor am I certain what you expect from R&D. Maybe if you give me some idea of what you're looking for from them, then we can move forward from there. As it stands, I see this as a general "what can R&D do for me" kind of discussion, and those are pretty underwhelming as far as usefulness goes. Still, if you have any particular concerns or suggestions, I'll do what I can to help with them.

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