is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

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is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

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is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  atomsmasher on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:02 am



following the announcements of new tournament systems or grand prix and pro tours is often sad for non american players, because we do not get access to these tournaments, like the scholarship series or champs, and usually get less pro tours and grand prix than north america. worlds is again in the usa, for the second time in a row. what are your opinions on that topic?

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  Luke on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:17 am

Come on man,

That's rubbish.


Europe has so many GP's. America is really big so you have to consider it continent sized.

EUROPE: 8 GP's, 1 PT
US & CAN: 5 GP's, 1 PT
JAP, ASIA: 1 GP 1 PT

Your from Germany also, there is a GP and a PT this year at Germany. Quite the hotspot for Magic, not to mention the home of Invitationals last year!
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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  atomsmasher on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:32 am

yeah sure, the pts where distributed quite equaly since 2005 where 5 pro tours where held in the usa, my mayor topic was champs and mss, or scholar ship tournaments, why not having them here?

and counting worlds makes it two pro tours in the usa and the second worlds in a row.

and why not make a rule that the major events should be distributed equally?

the invitational is rather pointless for players not invited and the only real highlight is seeing kenji drunk^^
you could not participate and the formats were not relevant to say the least.


the invitional was at the spielemesse, by far the biggest gaming convention in the world, it is not to far fetched to have a promotional activity there.

and i can not find a gp in germany this year.

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  mercenarybdu on Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:30 am

atomsmasher wrote:

following the announcements of new tournament systems or grand prix and pro tours is often sad for non american players, because we do not get access to these tournaments, like the scholarship series or champs, and usually get less pro tours and grand prix than north america. worlds is again in the usa, for the second time in a row. what are your opinions on that topic?

You have to keep in mind that the company had to find a slot to showcase Legacy. So it was appropriate to settle Worlds in the USA as players would have access to nearly all of the cards they need to build the decks as opposed to holding the events in Europe or APAC where most suppliers might or might not have all of the cards ready to acquire.

So instead of having the tough decision of whether to showcase Extended or Block at that level they eliminated that and made it clear by my understanding that it should be Legacy in that slot over the PTQ formats. Since Worlds was moved from Summer/Fall to Winter Block became invalid.

Remember that Extended and Block have been the PTQ formats for many years to gain a slot at a constructed PT in addition to that they are have their own series of events every year just to showcase what you could do with the cards from those sets. So it would make perfect sense to bring Worlds back to the USA.
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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  bsushort on Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:35 am

The GPs seem pretty well distributed (at least when you take into consideration that not all the Latin American and Asian GPs have been assigned), but Worlds shouldn't really be in the US again. Having the biggest tournament of the year close enough to drop in and check it out is a fun situation, but one that should be spread around. We got it last year, now it should be another continent's turn.

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  Luke on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:19 pm

atomsmasher wrote:yeah sure, the pts where distributed quite equaly since 2005 where 5 pro tours where held in the usa, my mayor topic was champs and mss, or scholar ship tournaments, why not having them here?

and counting worlds makes it two pro tours in the usa and the second worlds in a row.

and why not make a rule that the major events should be distributed equally?

the invitational is rather pointless for players not invited and the only real highlight is seeing kenji drunk^^
you could not participate and the formats were not relevant to say the least.


the invitional was at the spielemesse, by far the biggest gaming convention in the world, it is not to far fetched to have a promotional activity there.

and i can not find a gp in germany this year.

I concede the point, your not wrong. But maybe it makes the most financial sense to do the big events in the USA.
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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  atomsmasher on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:46 pm

why should it be more profitable? the biggest gp of all times? Paris. During the worlds in Paris they ran out of product for side events and that it was the biggest event ever (over 2600 players attending in the events) so i do not get the point.

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  Luke on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:39 pm

atomsmasher wrote:why should it be more profitable? the biggest gp of all times? Paris. During the worlds in Paris they ran out of product for side events and that it was the biggest event ever (over 2600 players attending in the events) so i do not get the point.

I wasn't sure, I was just throwing thoughts out into the open.

Your points are all valid. Worlds: London sounds good though!!
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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  atomsmasher on Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:36 pm

@luke: sure why not london, but i guess its asias turn this time.

@mercenarybdu:

i do not the think the legacy argument is a valid one. why is the card pool of regions relevant. to participate at worlds you need to qualify via nationals or pro points/level etc... so the players able to paticipate in the tournament do not change with the location. the non american players still suffer the same problems, whether the tournament is in america or not.

and it gives no reason why the tournament is again in america or is your point that we will get legacy at worlds forever and therefore all worlds will be held in america?

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  rickiep00h on Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:47 pm

I think the idea is that there's a higher concentration of the cards in America, therefore the non-US players can get their cards when they get to the States, rather than pay to have them shipped out, etc. It's easy to proxy a deck for playtesting, it's hard to build a deck with physical cards when you're halfway around the world from them.

Furthermore, it would be more profitable to a US-based company to hold the events in cheaper US venues with cheaper US travel costs for the US judges, organizers, and staff. Is it jingoist? Maybe a little. But it's a lot cheaper to send the entourage from Renton to Memphis than it is to go to Berlin. I'm not saying it's right or wrong from a moral or ethical standpoint, but from a BUSINESS standpoint, it's solid. I agree that, according to continent rotation and precedent, it should be somewhere else, but honestly, at least we GET a Worlds tournament this year.

I guess what it really comes down to is that I don't know what you're really complaining for. Yes, it should be somewhere else, but it isn't now. And there's no reason to believe the Worlds will be in America every year. Just because it is two years in a row? Hardly precedent.

Entirely cutting MSS/JSS and a Pro Tour with no announced plans to bring them back? That's an issue.

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Australia?

Post  gr8wall on Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:04 am

wouldnt it be nice if there was a grand prix in australia?

im not a big competitive player but it would be nice to attend some of these events without having to leave the country. and it always seems america gets first preferance for this sort of thing.

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  iceage4life on Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:38 am

gr8wall wrote:wouldnt it be nice if there was a grand prix in australia?

im not a big competitive player but it would be nice to attend some of these events without having to leave the country. and it always seems america gets first preferance for this sort of thing.

You usually get one I think. That said it is a questionable location think last year it had <300 players (correct me if I'm wrong.) I'd rather have the occasional PT in Australia or New Zealand but honestly if 200-300 people are going to make a GP there are better places to have them imo.

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Post  PV on Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:29 pm

I don't see how you from australia can honestly complain, seeing as you have less people in your GPs than we do in our PTQs and still every year australia gets a gp and latin america gets none ^^

I think you can't argue with the PTs distribution and such - I mean, someone will always be unhappy about it and I guess they have their criteria - whatever is cheaper for them, the place with the biggest sales, etc. Now why other places don't have city champs, states, JSS and all those things North America has, I honestly can't tell.

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  mercenarybdu on Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:42 am

PV wrote:I don't see how you from australia can honestly complain, seeing as you have less people in your GPs than we do in our PTQs and still every year australia gets a gp and latin america gets none ^^

I think you can't argue with the PTs distribution and such - I mean, someone will always be unhappy about it and I guess they have their criteria - whatever is cheaper for them, the place with the biggest sales, etc. Now why other places don't have city champs, states, JSS and all those things North America has, I honestly can't tell.

I still agree with you.

Keep in mind that Japan has other events too as well as what North America but sadly unrecorded for the databases to learn about. Then Europe has Gateway Programs and other programs that offer nifty foils that other places can't tend to gain their hands on.

So it's not just all about North America. But I could see that South America isn't promoted hard enough so that is a sector that they should expand into as well as the Middle East.
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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  atomsmasher on Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:48 am

lol, nice we have a gate way programm how could i complain, if america has scholarshipprogramms and champs. my fault.

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  iceage4life on Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:45 am

atomsmasher wrote:lol, nice we have a gate way programm how could i complain, if america has scholarshipprogramms and champs. my fault.

Err about the MSS and Champs...

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  maarten on Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:05 pm

middle east. lol

I am sorry , but that area of the world has no interest in Magic. Trust me. (the few individuals that would like it, can;t play because their environment bans it)

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  Reindeercards on Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:33 pm

As for the PT, if I understand correctly, WotC pays themselves to hold the event rather than a tournament organizer paying the bill.

If that's true, that's the reason for holding it in the US. The value of the US dollar has dropped significantly against other currency. For example around 18% over the last two years vs the euro.

So roughing through an estimate of the numbers, let's say a PT costs WotC $500,000 to hold in the US. It'd cost 18% more to hold in europe due to the currency conversion rate which would make it cost $90,000 more than it would have two years ago.

Add onto that the extra airfare out of WotC's pockets to fly 15-20 people overseas instead of inside the US...at least another $7000. Plus extra money involved in buying hotel rooms and food in europe.

So at a time WotC is cutting costs, they can pay an extra $97,000+ to hold it in europe. Or not.

Honestly, we're lucky they don't hold every PT in Seattle.

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  atomsmasher on Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:54 am

your post makes me want to scream. so because wizards is saving money its okay if all worlds and pts are in america? i can't even respond to that because it is so ignorant.

1. european events attract far more people. i repeat: biggest gp of all time? paris with over 1500 participants. biggest worlds ever? again paris with over 2500 players in main and side events. check the event coverage when bdm says they were running out of product and had to send people home because it is to crowded.

2. people outside the us are paying the same amount of money for magic cards, does that not give them the right to have equal OP Programs?


what is your point here? it is okay if non americans buy magic cards, but all tournaments will be held in america?

you should not underestimate the influence of the european, or the asian market. especially europe may even be more important then the us market.

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  Reindeercards on Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:34 am

atomsmasher wrote: your post makes me want to scream. so because wizards is saving money its okay if all worlds and pts are in america? i can't even respond to that because it is so ignorant.

Maybe you should swallow your anger and think before typing. What a novel concept!

I didn't say it was OK. I said that's probably why they did it.

They completely cut a PT to save themselves money so I think we can accept the idea that they are financially hurting. Heck, the reason the PT is in Kuala Lumpur is probably because its cheaper than having it in Japan. Its the cheapest asian country where they have a fan base. Worlds is in Memphis which is probably one of the cheapest areas of the US to hold a major event of any kind.

If they'd held Worlds outside of the US, it'd have cost them an additional bundle of money that they would have had to cut from somewhere else. They probably felt having Worlds in the US again was better than finding another $100,000 to cut out of the organized play budget. They could have reduced the payout at the two PTs and Worlds each by $33,333 and held Worlds elsewhere.

The prize for PT Kuala Lumpur is $230,795. Does anyone want to seriously consider that we reduce that payout to $197,462 so that Worlds can be held in Europe, Japan, or Australia instead of the US? We can have that discussion very easily.

atomsmasher wrote: biggest worlds ever? again paris with over 2500 players in main and side events. check the event coverage when bdm says they were running out of product and had to send people home because it is to crowded.

Did they make an additional $100,000 profit (not gross) from side events in Paris that they wouldn't have made from side events if the Worlds had been held elsewhere? No.

Its not enough to wail that there's a problem. We also have to identify why there's a problem and come up with some viable solution. Whining about the unfairness of it all isn't likely to change anything. Its not that they are unaware that its unfair and if we only bring it to their attention that it'll never happen again. They are already fully aware that Memphis Tennessee isn't in Greece, Spain, or Norway and that last year Worlds was held in the US.

They made a financial decision for business reasons. If we are to change their minds, we have to approach it as a money problem and find a way for them to be able to come up with the extra money they need in order for them to do what we want.

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Re: is the distribution of new tournament programms, pro tours and grand prixs fair?

Post  atomsmasher on Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:28 am

euro is not the only other currency in the world. sure the euro is quite strong recently, but there sure are other currencies, that may make it possible to avoid such discrepancy, or even make it a profitable one.

you are talking like you have inside information, if thats the case, and your sources are reliable than your points are all good.

i have no such informations so i have to make guesses. and experience tells us that not all of wotc discisions and actions are based on rational considerations.

if wotc of the coast is in finacial trouble than we have to question many decisions they made. cutting the champs system for example.
like william spaniel pointed out in his block on magictcgplayer.com they must have failed in one way or another. the champs system was successfull. so we can consider two possibilties.

1. despite the fact the system was well deceived, it was not profitable.

2. it was profitable.

in case one they screwed up because they did not make it profitable in the first place. how could a tournament not be profitable that was that well attended and created a need for new cards?

in case two why should you end a successful tournament system thats making money if you are in financial trouble?

the horrible comunication policy is the next issue. announcing the cutting of a pro tour in a sideline of an interview in a colomn on wizards.com? thats either a really bad omen or really stupid. lets hope it is just stupid. the same with the end of champs. i only found out about it in an anouncement on tcgplayer.com. thats even badder than the first announcement. and the given reason is again either an example of bad comunication or the reason for serious concern.

i mean come on. if they rearrange their op program, so that it reaches a broader player base, how does it affect champs, which is well received and open for all competitors and appeals to competitive and less competitve players? and why announce the end of champs before you have a replacement?

like i said the best option would be bad comunication because the other option is even more frightening.

that would remind me of the situation with vs. system in europe. for those who are unaware of the situation: vs. system is or was a tcg by upper deck with roughly the same pro tour tournaments. it was quite successfull for a small period, because it nearly totally abandoned luck from the game. than one day, they anounced the end of all pro tournaments in europe, and their argument was, that the tournament structure did not appeal to the majority of the players, despite the fact that our tournaments were bigger than their american counterparts. this development possibly led to the downfall of the american market as well, because they underestimated the influence of the european market and the development in europe led to a decreasing trust in america.

okay this post was really long and a little confuse, so i will sum it up.

we are facing serious changes which are not or only insufficiently explained. so either the situation is really bad, or wizards is really bad at comunication. either way we have to doubt the competence of all involved parties. i do not have insight in the finacial situation of wotc, but if they are having worlds in tennesse, because its the cheapest possibility, than times are really rough. if they are only bad, than we need to point out every faillure the made, but if the financial situation is the problem, then u are right and having worlds in tennesse is our smallest problem.
if the finacial situation is fierce, than honesty is appreciated and the only possible course of action. history shows that deceiving the players is no solution. the announcement of upper deck, that all pro tournaments will be cancelled and alternatives will be announced later on, led to huge protests and nearly all players quit the game, before the new tournaments were even announced. so why not make it completely different? be totally honest about the situation. may be we could have sth. like the donation campaign on wikipedia. they needed a certain amount of money and had a chart on the top of all pages indicating how the donation process is going on. we could have sth like that too. wizards says how many boosters they need to sell to hold a certain amount of pts/gps and make a chart showing the amount of boosters already sold. this would achieve several things.

1. they relief pressure from their shoulders, because now the players are in responsibility to maintain the pro tour.

2. improve transparency and trust in wotc.

3. increase the identification with wotc, because now every player sees that they are helping and can make a difference.

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