Selecting Union's representatives.

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  Raph on Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:33 pm

The group is starting to expend and as planned, we need to set some kind of representation.

We need to select members who will be the Union's Representatives. We need people from each category of players, Pros and PTAs, and maybe one or two "outsiders" (someone with an outside look). A total of 6 of 7 members should be a good number. Their exact responsibilities are still to be determined.

So far, Frank Karsten, Evan Erwin and myself are "volunteering" for the job. If you think you can represent your category well and have good communication skills, and of course want in; make yourself known and introduce yourself.

What are your thoughts on a proper representation of the Union?

Let's give ourselves a couple of days for discussion and decide then.

Raph

Raph
Admin

Posts : 58
Join date : 2008-01-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Outsiders

Post  SpikeBoyM on Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:59 pm

I am an outsider, I guess as would be defined by this website. I play mostly on MTGO now, am active there, and write about the game. I do not get much of a chance to PTQ currently due to geographic and academic restraints. I do however, love following the Pro Tour and the live webcasts. I devour coverage and hope one day to do it myself. I enjoy watching the game, talking about the game, and generally immersing myself in the game. I care deeply about Magic and the Pro Tour, even if I never make it there. I would like to submit myself (or someone like myself) for an outsiders view. Here is a little more about me:
My name is Alex and I've been playing Magic since the Dark. About three years ago I got the bug, but had no means to actively PTQ, so I went to MTGO and found my niche- competitive commons Magic. Since then, I've been a vocal and eloquent proponent, writing for StarCityGames (once) and PureMTGO (much more often). I feel that my communication skills are quite good as I currently make my living (professional student and college administrator) through communicating my ideas.
But with regards to the Pro Tour and the "life style," well, it beings me great joy, even though I know I may never achieve that level. During the weekends of events, I am glued to my computer, hitting refresh for new information. I watch the coverage, sometimes falling asleep with it on, waking up to the autocard flashing before my eyes. I am always looking for a local PT or GP so I can go and just see what it is like, play in side events and maybe get some cards signed, pictures taken.
I do not claim to know what is best for the game, but am willing to learn and listen and do what I can to ensure Magic and the Pro Tour last a long long time.
If you want evidence of my writing, please search for "SpikeBoyM" on puremtgo.com. and Alex Ullman on SCG.
Thank you for your consideration,
-Alex Ullman

SpikeBoyM

Posts : 1
Join date : 2008-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Intentions

Post  Adam Nightmare on Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:45 pm

Raph, are your intentions to fix this one issue, or is it to form a group that will have some influence in this type of decision from here on out? I think, and hope, that its the latter, as the concept of a Players' Union has potential to impact far more than just this one singular issue.

Something you may want to keep in mind with these representatives is the unfeasablility of any particular non-pro individual to be able to travel to PT KL for this discussion. As you're looking for the whole scope of players to be involved, it seems unlikely to me that you'll be able to get a PTQ player, or a casual player, or a Vintage or Legacy player to make such an expensive trip on their own accord. It probably isn't a large issue at this time, as this particular case effects the Pro Tour players much more than the casual players, but looking forward, you may find you need a more accessable venue of meeting, to level the footing.

Adam Nightmare

Posts : 11
Join date : 2008-01-24
Age : 33
Location : Syracuse, NY, USA

View user profile http://www.mtgthesource.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  Eelco1972 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:02 am

I think this Union can help address the problem everyone has with the current changes in the professional side of the game we all love to WotC. Making yourself heard is important.

In the longrun though, i think something like the Union can be used for other things too: help out people that won a PTQ in a country where no airfares are included in the prizesupport, help out firsttimers with looking for hotels, help out certain groups of people with an appartment instead of a hotel to cut costs. The possibilities are limitless.

That's why i volunteered to the cause today too...
Wink

Eelco

Eelco1972

Posts : 57
Join date : 2008-01-23
Location : Luxembourg

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  Ed_Lim on Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:51 am

I would think that the 3 people mentioned being Frank, Evan Erwin and yourself Raph would be sufficient. I do not think it would be ideal for too many people to jump into the a verbal discussion with Wizards. Maybe 1 - 2 regular PTQ players more but that would be tops.

I also think that you should start jotting down the items of agenda in a public thread and organise discussion as to what we really want to voice our opinions about.

If this discussion between the players union and Wizards would impact the way the game will be played in the future and or the future direction the game is going into, then I don't think I would rather have anyone other than Frank and Raph on the case with this much on the line.

Ed

Ed_Lim

Posts : 2
Join date : 2008-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  friedm on Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:29 am

I'm interested in getting more involved in this. I think I can see everything from the PTA & semi-pro perspective. I'm Fried Meulders from Belgium, I've been PTQing for a loooooong time and made it to lvl 3 (lvl 5 now, how lucky) last year by qualifiying for a lot of PTs and some ok GP finishes. I think I still now what PTQing means and what you expect/hope for when participating. I've been to a lot of PTs without winning anything & going back to the PTQs. I know what it means to try and get there as I haven't top 8d a PT and had to keep playing PTQs.

I've tried to 'get there' and had my appearance fee cut. I got over that and made up my mind to try to reach for the next level , only to see another sudden change to the PT structure.

And I know wizards doesnt do charity and has its own goals.

PS: I'll be in kuala lumpur

friedm

Posts : 5
Join date : 2008-01-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  Cheeks on Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:03 am

I don't know how many people you want, but Fried sounds like a good addition.

Cheeks

Posts : 2
Join date : 2008-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  MatBowman on Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:07 am

As I PTQ player who will be in KL I could offer any input you guys may need during that event. But (unless I do well) most likely will not be a regular on the circuit so I am not sure I would be a reliable member. (this is the issue with including a PTQ player on such a committee)

In short, if yourselves/WotC require the input of a PTQ participant with dreams of PT attendance, then I can help out in KL.

Mat

MatBowman

Posts : 2
Join date : 2008-01-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Establish the common issues

Post  morgop on Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:34 am

A core group of people (3-4) who can present the issues in a concise, cohesive manner should be sufficient. It will be easier for both parties to include fewer individuals than multiple competing perspectives. If you come to a consensus on the main issues of each group and agree in advance on prospective solutions, then it should have the support of all involved. Certain individuals will have more experience with the issues to be addressed, so it may be wise to establish those before selecting more representatives. The tough part is coming to a consensus without the background data revealing the rationale for the changes from WOTC. Without that it's hard to establish the true issues and brainstorm solutions.

morgop

Posts : 15
Join date : 2008-01-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  JSprouse on Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:46 am

I think Raph and Frank are excellent representatives. I'd like to see someone from the US and Japan as well though. Mark and Antonino seem reasonable for the US. As was asked before, has any one spoken to the Japanese about this?

JSprouse

Posts : 1
Join date : 2008-01-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  eunck on Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:46 pm

* We all seem to agree that Frank and Raph should be in this group.
* I think the group should contain less than 6 people, 5 at the most, better 4
* Obviously all members of the group should be in KL anyway
* For potential meetings after the first the group doesn't have to be all of the same people (although not all of them should change)
* The group should contain at least one PTQ-player, who has not played many PTs before (I wouldn't count Fried as a PTQ player). 1 in a group of 4 should be enough (or 2 out of 5)
* The group should contain at least one American. However Mark/Ant are from a group that's already well represented, so maybe an American PTQ-player. Or maybe Evan because he has kind of a special role?
* It would be good to also have a Japanese player on the team. However I have a hard time imagining a Japanese PTQ player in this, although I don't think it's impossible. Alternative would be yet another Pro or not having a Japanese player on the team.

eunck

Posts : 8
Join date : 2008-01-23
Location : Hamburg

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  Raph on Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:09 pm

Hey all,

I really like Eelco's idea about the possible way the Union might take in the future. It's true that new PT players are missing some supervision. Having one website giving advice about where to stay, what to do and so on on a PT location is something that we can provide. I never really liked the fact that the hotels suggested by wizards were just the ones closest to the site -which were/are always very expensive. In a nutshell, that's a service we could provide.

Note: We might/will need a website designer for later.

I also like Fried's point of view. He has been battling forever in PTqs, he knows what they are like, and he will be attending events this year; making him available.

We are now selecting representatives for the group. That does not mean all these people will be attending the meeting in KL. The way the meeting will go will be discussed when we are a bit more organised. We will not be able to talk about every issue we have in KL; we will first have to discuss the most important ones. I believe the Union's Representatives (UR?) will be the ones you'll turn to when you need to discuss an issue. In other words, that's what I have in mind now, he will be moderating/leading his own forum category (ie. "PTq Issues" ).

The thing is that having responsibilities now for representatives is not urgent, the important thing is to have a credible and to-be-solid structure before we can introduce ourselves to WotC.

I contacted Shuhei and I have seen the link posted on a Japanese board. The fact that communication is tough and that there are already hundreds of posts to read leave them on the bench for now. I will talk more with them before the PT.

Raph
Admin

Posts : 58
Join date : 2008-01-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  darkfoot on Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:25 pm

I'd be interested in contributing, although not necessarily as one of the group that is being discussed here. I think I might have a slightly different perspective to most people here, and hope that my opinion might be interesting to some of you because of that. My name is Anatoli Lightfoot, and I'll be in KL if anyone wants to chat - just wander up and say hi.

darkfoot

Posts : 4
Join date : 2008-01-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Applying for the job...

Post  Eelco1972 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:18 pm

Hey,

Couple of posts ago i mentioned that i wish to represent the Union on some level.
This can be considered my job application.

My name is Eelco van Ruth and i'm from Holland. I have been playing Magic since Mirage and since that moment i have been involved in pretty much every aspact of the game: did some reporting at GP's, played in every tournament form from Gateway to Pro Tour, been level-1 judge for quite some time now, HJ'ed a PTQ once and pretty much every other tournament form, worked for an official WotC affiliate for 2 years as a Product and Organized Play Manager (2002-2004) and love the game to death. Best possible proof for that last statement ? I even got my girlfriend addicted to drafting, nuff said.

I'm not attending KL, but i'm pretty sure that Raph will have more than enough people to choose from that want to join him in a good conversation with the company that has allowed us to enjoy Magic for very long now and hopefully will continue to do so in the future.
My efforts will, if the community allows me to be a part of the Union, hopefuly allow me to be help morphing the Union from a group of Pro's trying to get into a serious talk with WotC at KL into some sort of helpline for aspiring Pro's and in the longrun maybe be an active partner for WotC to make communication with their Pro players better than it is now.

I'm very sure that a Union for people whose dream it is to play in the Pro Tour once, players that qualify a little bit more often for the PT and more active Pro's can be a great tool to make the Pro Tour experience a little better for everyone interested.
As i have mentioned in a different thread: let's say you live in a country that won't have an airfare ticket included in the prizesupport of the PTQ you just won and you don't even own a passport, how will you know where to look for a flight that takes your wallet into consideration ?
Or you try to google up a nice hotel and you keep getting websites that think that 120$ a night is a good price ? Or you have heard about people renting an appartment with a group of people for a fraction of what hotelrooms would have costed you; but where to look for it ?!
Those kind of things might be taken care of by a Union of some sort.

If we're clear about where we want to take this rough idea it might even be possible to grant the PTQ/GP/PT community a little less abstract home: a community based website can be the information point for all your questions and post PTQ reports from around the globe, keep track of people qualified for certain PT's, hook you up with local carddealers or places where you can play a local tournament if you fly to a location and feel like playing the Wednesday before or the Tuesday after the PT or a GP and identify the hotels where large groups of other players have ended up.

I have done this kinda thing before and i'm more than happy to take care of such a challenge again; at the moment i'm only working 15 to 20 hours a week anyway and it doesn't look like that's about to change for another year. I would love to set up a structure for a place where you can ask any question regarding worldwide tournaments where Pro Points are on the line; probably the essence of the future of the Union.

Feel free to PM me with questions you might have.

Eelco

Eelco1972

Posts : 57
Join date : 2008-01-23
Location : Luxembourg

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  Raph on Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:12 pm

"Verbal" mentionned on the other topic that the bargaining points and our exact arguments should not be displayed on the "public" forum, for obvious strategical reasons and because in the end, decisions have to be taken.

I intend to create a private forum where all the issues mentionned in the public ones will be discussed and put into form. The members able to view/post on that forum will be URs and people I personnaly trust (if you have a problem with that let me know).

I don't want to keep info from anyone. It's just that as I underlined many times already, we need some kind of hierarchy. As long as everyone trust the ones in charge, there should be no problem but I'm sure you all understand the point behind that.

Raph
Admin

Posts : 58
Join date : 2008-01-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  Adam Nightmare on Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:28 pm

I suppose I could formally offer my services in this thread, as well.

For those of you who don't know me (and I'm sure most of you don't), my name is Adam Barnello, and I'm from Syracuse, NY. I've been a dedicated Magic player for over 10 years, and through that time, have seen a lot of things - even the very structure of the rules themselves - change. While I don't have a lot of credits to my name in the mainstream Magic culture (no PTQ wins, hell, only one PTQ showing), I have a fair amount of sway in the underground scene known as the Eternal Magic community.

I've been playing Legacy since before it was Legacy - I turned to Eternal Magic once Mirage rotated out of Type 2. Along side the rest of the staff at mtgTheSource.com, I've been helping to shape and advance the Legacy format since its inception in 2004. I've written articles for mtgSalvation, and more recently I've been writing for StarCityGames.com. I've taken 6 hour roadtrips to play in 30 man tournaments. I've invested a lot in the Legacy format, and the game as a whole. I've experienced the Professional Events atmosphere at both American Legacy GPs, and would do anything in my power to ensure that more Legacy GP events occur. I'm thoroughly dedicated to the future of this game, and I think this group is exactly that - the future of competitive Magic.

While, as I said above, the average Legacy or Vintage player doesn't see the ramifications of the recent changes in any tangible way, we most certainly stand beside those of you who are more effected. At the same time, I would hope the same would be true were our situations somehow reversed. There are a lot of differences between the interests of the Circuit players, and the interests of the Eternal players, but I strongly believe this group could look out for the interests of both. I think this organization should be making the effort to have representation from the widest range of concerned parties available, to get the complete picture of how each issue affects the entire Magic community, not just the specific subset playing in PTQs and GPs. Generally, I've found that the focus of Eternal Magic players (that being the history of the game, as opposed to the present or near future) shifts our collective perspective on the important aspects of the game, and that perspective could be extremely beneficial to this group. I would be honored to provide a venue for that perspective to be injected into the group. If you'll have me, I'd be proud to represent the Eternal Magic players and speak to their interests, in this organization.

Adam Nightmare

Posts : 11
Join date : 2008-01-24
Age : 33
Location : Syracuse, NY, USA

View user profile http://www.mtgthesource.com

Back to top Go down

Union Reps...

Post  Joey on Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:45 pm

i think this whole site is a great idea, seing as with any form of competition (from casual to pro), its very important for the players to be able to give feedback to "the powers that be".

one thing though, (and im sure its been thought off, but i thought id post anyway). while the idea is great, precautions have to be taken to make sure that every level gets some representation. While im 100% sure that the people on this site have the best interest of the game in mind, dont forget that magic has a huge range of players all with different wants, needs, and whatnot... for example the lv 6 player from france has a vastly different set of needs and wants than the serious magic player in latin america who cant get anywhere near the tour. So in selecting some "reps" we need to make sure that most regions or type of player gets at least a minor form of representation, otherwise there exists the possibility that "Group A" inadvertently pushes a point that ends up shafting "Group L", etc...

to illustrate:

for me the latest changes raised 3 thoughts that stuck out more than the rest:

1. as a player who would love to get on the tour, there is less incentive to do so now... im not talking financially, but more from the point of view that somehow the whole tour idea lost some of its luster

2. 2 as a fan, while Pro tours are the ultimate level of competitive magic for PLAYERS, but for the fans PT's could be called the ultimate level of spectator magic. Im imagining what tennis fans would do if they suddenly decided to cancel a grand slam, say wimbledon, or the aussie open... or golf decided to turf out one of the majors, since renting augusta national must cost a pretty penny (or euro)... it might seem like overdramatizing, but to me it seems like that is the equivalent of what the new changes do....

3. The worlds in the US again thing: worlds moving between regions every year was awesome, i know a LOT of asians who where planning a year end vacation to whatever asian destination worlds would be in this year (since europe and US got the last 2). there where a lot os sad asian players once the site for worlds was announced.

while for some pros the changes could have possibly meant

1.a loss of potential earnings

2. a loss of travel opportunities (Levy, and the Ruels seem like players who enjoy the travelling aspect of the PTs almost as much as, if not more than the magic aspect)

3. etc....

these two "points of view" are very similar, yet also strikingly different since one is from the inside, and one is from the outside *so to speak*
for instance imagine that to hold another PT, the tradeoff would have to be no video coverage at any PT to cut costs, the Pro player might be ok with that. but the fans who love to watch and replay video coverage hoping to see tight play (or to hear worlds semifinalists curse off camera Razz ), would be even worse off than they are now


so basically what im trying to say is, with the sheer amount of magic players out there, its gonna be hard to make sure everyone gets a fair shake, thats why it seems essential to make sure the "reps" come from a wide variety of backgrounds so as to make sure that as many "types" or "groups" of players as possible get represented.

sorry for the long tangent.

Joey

Posts : 4
Join date : 2008-01-25
Age : 35
Location : Indonesia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

helping out

Post  RuudW on Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:20 pm

Hey everyone!

This is Ruud Warmenhoven, already talked to Raph a bit about this and I'd like to help. As a level 4 (now 6) I haven't actually lost that much, but keeping the PT healthy is important to me. I've been around for a while, have seen many changes and met many, many friends through the PT, so for that reason alone I would be sad to see it go. My personal stance is that being gravy (old lvl 3) shouldn't be too expensive, and you should gain a bit from the next level on, increasing up to the point where the top benefits should be worthwhile to chase.

I'm curious to what WotC has to say in KL.

Ruud

RuudW

Posts : 7
Join date : 2008-01-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  LSV on Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:01 pm

Hi,
This is Luis S-V and I too would like to do what I can to assist in this process. As someone who (along with Cheon) spent a fair bit of time last year and was planning on spending alot of time this year going to events and trying to level, I think this organization is a fantastic idea. I'd like to think im pretty active on my local scene also, even doing some judging now and then, I think I have a pretty good read on what PTQ players want. It hasnt been very long since I was battling in PTQs either. My roommates from last year continue to PTQ, so I'm somewhat involved in helping them with that. Either way, I should be attending most (if not all) of the big events this year and I would like to get involved in this. See everyone in KL I suppose, and I shouldnt be too hard to get ahold of before then if needed.

LSV

Posts : 1
Join date : 2008-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  jeroenremie on Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:17 pm

As representatives, i think you want to have all three of the main magic regions in the world represented: Japan, Europe, America, as well as all three of the main player base regarding the PT: Veteran PT player, new PT player, PTQ player. I also feel the group should NEVER become bigger then 4 people, as this will just lead to bad things (you can't have a meeting with too many people). That's why i feel the correct representatives would be:

Either Frank or Raph. They are basically the same, long time pros from europe, so they don't really add much to eachother. Having both doesn't really serve a function.

Evan Erwin. As a PTQ player, casual mage and follower of the PT, I think he has enough of everything to be of a lot of value.

LSV, or another new school Pro. LSV has only been around for 2 years right? So he has some new insights, and also kinda remembers what it was like to grind it out at the PTQs. He also never was spoiled by masters and EOTY payouts.

Shuhei, or another japanese pro, that actually speaks fairly good english. This is ofcourse important, cause you want someone that can actually join in the debate. It kind of sucks that the japanese aren't that good in english, but as the group that is actually getting the worse end of the deal (no PT, one GP) I feel Japan needs to be represented. This could also be Olivier, since well, he is basically a japanese player anyways, and does speak better english...Smile

Just my two cents. I think having all groups represented is VERY important, and should be seen as the main focus point when forming this group. It now looks like people just want to be part of something, so they themselves can say what they think, but thats not how this is supposed to work.

jeroenremie

Posts : 2
Join date : 2008-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  amiel on Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:21 pm

I am not sure the representatives should be the admins/mods of this forum.
I believe in hierarchy, but it is has to be fair. separate the powers.

amiel

Posts : 3
Join date : 2008-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

.

Post  PV on Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:30 pm

The problem with having people from all kind of groups and nationalities is that suddenly we might be in an internal conflict, I think

Like, imagine we are talking about worlds being held in Memphis. For most of those who have their flights paid (lvl 5 and up), this is bad. For those who live in japan, this is bad. But for those who live in the US and don't have their flights paid, it's a good change. The same happens with the Latin American GP - for latin americans, it's good if it's in south america. For North Americans, it's good if it's in Mexico. Same with amateur money removal - most amateurs didn't like it, most pros did. Now what do we tell wizards if we have representatives from all the groups with all points of view? Or are we not even bringing those subjects up? Even if we don't bring those particular subjects up, eventually money has to be cut somewhere and redirected somewhere, and those groups have different opinions on what is this "somewhere". I'm not sure a players union can represent all the interests because they are too conflicting with each other.

I agree with Jeroen that Frank and Levy are basically "the same thing", though, but I don't think the presence of any of them is harmful to a meeting.

I'm offering to help too, but I think just like Frank and Levy and LSV so I'd have very little to add in terms of group, though I guess I can represent Latin America just fine if it's needed.

PV

Posts : 20
Join date : 2008-01-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Agreeing with Jeroen/PV

Post  ZackH on Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 pm

i agree with the last few posts. We need a large amount of perspectives. The driving forces of this forum are pro levels 3+, probably because these are the most affected by the changes. That's fine, but the representatives must be from all aspects of the game. The avid fan, the person who has been to a PT once, the level 2, the level 3, the level 6, etc.

For the meeting in KL, 4-5 people would be fine, with a PTQ plane ticket winner, Raph/Frank, level 2, PT fan (this one might be tough since we're in Malaysia).

After that, the discussion will mostly be on this private forum, so the numbers don't have to be so exact.

My name is Zack Hall (not Zac Hill) and I'd be happy to provide a level 2 perspective. I was battling in PTQs as little as 9-12 months ago, and unless I top 50 hollywood, will be again soon.

To reiterate, I think our numbers of WotC reps should be small to start, and only increase out of necessity. More people means less work done, more arguments, etc.

Zack

ZackH

Posts : 9
Join date : 2008-01-23
Age : 29
Location : Massachusetts

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  Pedro on Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:51 pm

I would really like to see Paulo Vitor in that group, besides being a great player and guy, he's latinamerican and otherwise we will not be represented at all.

Pedro

Posts : 9
Join date : 2008-01-23
Age : 35
Location : Patagonia Argentina

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Someone from Hasbro?

Post  jubjub on Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:33 am

Maybe someone who knows how Hasbro operates? It would make the decision making a lot more easier if we know what they're motive is.

jubjub

Posts : 1
Join date : 2008-01-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Selecting Union's representatives.

Post  Sponsored content Today at 9:13 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum